#12 episode of “Helping B2B High Ticket Service Providers Grow – One Lesson at a Time”, with Tom Libelt.
Since he was 16, Tom worked in sales and retail, then moved into the B2B world, then on to B2C outside sales, over the phone sales, etc.
He pretty much did it all. 🙂
After more than ten years of experience in SEO, sales and marketing, creating successful partnerships in the online course space, Tom decided to serve every course creator.
Helping them to be more successful by working strategically, not haphazardly.
STAY TUNED for more incredible lessons, stories and growth tips, straight from the most successful entrepreneurs!
[00:00:07.850] – Dancho – Haircut check, and… I’m joking, guys. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode on Helping B2B High Ticket Service Providers – One Lesson at a Time. As you already know by now, I really work hard to find find the best experts out there to give you the latest secrets or the latest insights or no short solution, but actually, people that suffered a lot, learned an expertise, and now they’re ready to share with the world. For today, I’m actually excited to share another expert with you, Tom Libelt, I assume, is the surname. Welcome to the show.
[00:00:42.350] – Tom – Yeah, thanks for having me.
[00:00:44.430] – Dancho – For everybody out there, Tom is actually the expert when it comes to marketing online courses. That’s all I’m going to say because otherwise, Tom, what you’re going to talk about. But perhaps quickly if you could do a short introduction, Tom, on who you are, what you do so people will know the background before we dig into the subject.
[00:01:05.250] – Tom – Sure. Yeah, I mean, my entire background really consists of sales and marketing. Since I was 16, I worked in sales, in retail, and then I moved on to B2B, then outside sales for B2C, then over the phone sales, I pretty much did it all. Pretty much, it was mostly sales. And when I got pretty good because after enough years of pounding your head against the wall, eventually you get really good at it. I realized once you have a sales system down, there are only two paths forward, the dump path, which is what I did at those corporations. Go hit 100 doors and hope someone likes what you’re selling or actually marketing your services. So only the right people come and talk to you, right. So there’s only those two paths. And I was like, well, I got to get good at marketing because hitting doors is fine or doing cold calls, which I did. But the problem is you’re leaving a lot to chance and you can only scale it so much. There’s only so much time in a day that you can hit so many doors, hit so many phone calls, right. And people get this wrong, too. Like, they confuse sales with marketing. Marketing enhances and brings clarity to the sales process, right. So it drives a lot more people and it gets the right ones in the wrong ones out if it’s good marketing and make sales. What a lot of people I realized do, and especially with online courses is they forget that sales is a different thing.
[00:02:52.050] – Dancho – Yeah.
[00:02:52.840] – Tom – They’ll come to me with a course that hasn’t sold anything and be like, can you market this? And I’m like, well, if somehow everything aligned and you made a funnel that works and your sales process is nailed, which I know it’s not because you haven’t sold any, then marketing is going to really take off. But if not and thankfully, I know how to do it, we need to validate and people always say, oh, how do you mean validate? I know this, I was like, yeah, you know it, but you can’t sell it, no one bought it yet. And if you try to sell it, you’re just going to waste money and time. We need to validate this, and we got to create the sales process, and then we amplify with marketing. And usually those things get confused and people like, oh, it’s just market, when no, you haven’t created a sales process yet.
[00:03:40.250] – Dancho – Just keep adding, pouring money into ads and content without actually knowing if people like what you have to sell.
[00:03:47.980] – Tom – Yeah, so just the basic, product market fit. Except with online courses you have a third piece, which is the educator. You have a market, audience, offer, market and educator. Often, and you’ll see this, you can have four people making the same exact offer, let’s say credit repair. I’m teaching people how to repair their credit. And one of them and this is true, by the way, makes a million dollars in 45 minutes and the other three are lucky to make $100 in a month. All selling the same thing because one educator is what everyone is drawn to, even though they’re all selling the same thing. And this is often uncomfortable to hear. But sometimes with online courses, if you’re teaching the right thing but it’s not selling, it could just be you.
[00:04:49.370] – Dancho – Don’t get offended, but you need your, how you called, the educator needs to be also not famous celebrity, but actually recognized on the market.
[00:04:59.630] – Tom – Well, recognized makes it easier. But the thing is, you need to be one, pleasant on the eye or ear because people will be listening or viewing it. You need to be somewhat entertaining. You teach, right. But you need to keep people engaged. And you do need some kind of charisma to really sell if it’s a personal course, right. It’s different if you’re building a school with like ten different educators and coaches, no one really knows what they’re buying except offer. But most online courses don’t sell like that. It’s pretty much, hey, I’m this expert and I’m going to teach you how to get from A to B.
[00:05:42.570] – Dancho – Yeah. I’m curious because the same things that you actually mentioned are valid even in the offline world. I mean, if you are a trainer, yeah, you need to be an entertainer a bit because nobody wants a technical expert that’s boring. He still has the knowledge, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. On the other hand, there are people the other extreme, entertainers, stories, funny stuff, so interesting to listen at the end of the day, did I learn anything? No. And they’re like, well, why did I actually paid for this training? And I was curious. I mean, compared offline training with online training, how big is the difference, actually?
[00:06:22.350] – Tom – Well, you touched on a couple of parts, which I actually haven’t been asked about, so this is good. With technical people, right? What I’ve noticed they’re really technical people. I’ve seen them do really well, selling courses are extremely short, right. So I’m going to teach you something super valuable, very hard to do. Let’s say there’s a thing that you need to automate or whatever with software, just whatever. And every video you watch on YouTube is missing something. Every blog post you read is missing something. And people are always asking about how do I actually get this done? And if you can boil it down into 15 minutes, you basically show them the missing part with everything else. I’ve seen those sell really well. And you don’t need to be entertaining because they’re just following the few steps and they’re done and they’ll be so happy. Like, wow, I got this Zapier finally working between these eight different Frankenstein tools. And now it’s all good, right? Don’t need to be entertaining. The entertaining people often speakers, coaches, trainers in the offline world…
[00:07:39.080] – Dancho – The self-proclaimed gurus.
[00:07:40.780] – Tom – Have a very hard time selling in the online world because there is no actual outcome. Okay, it’s different when you have a group of people watching you on stage and you entertain them and make them feel good. And then you use the tactics which people get sold on. Where the excitement and the offer and the urgency and running to the back of the room just gets people going and they buy.
[00:08:16.740] – Dancho – You know Russell Bronson, the Perfect Webinar script, where he was actually made two point something millions in half-hour.
[00:08:26.070] – Tom – Used all the tricks in the book, right. It’s very different than you trying to actually explain to people what you’re selling. And when people see that, they’ll be like, yeah, I don’t know about this. There is no outcome here that I actually want. Speakers and trainers and coaches often have a very difficult time selling online courses without the speaking engagement first, because there’s very little substance. It’s a lot of theory.
[00:08:56.610] – Dancho – Yeah. It’s more inspirational driving, internal motivation rather than man, shut up, listen to me. Do X, Y, and Z and you’re going to get these results. And that’s it.
[00:09:09.950] – Tom – Yeah. So if you want to pass it to an online course that works every single time, you simply follow a very simple process. You start with a service that you do for people, do it for your service, whether it’s getting leads or marketing for them or getting them, whatever, just whatever outcome you do it for people first. Easiest to sell the most annoying type of business in the world, right. Because you’re doing all the work. You slowly move into and do it with your service, which is when you start sort of half educating people, but you’re still doing a part of the work, you then try to move into one on one consulting, right. So as you see, we’re starting to remove work from the equation on your end, right.
[00:10:01.690] – Dancho – More talking, less working.
[00:10:03.630] – Tom – Exactly. When you do enough one on ones, the second step to that is do one on one with a method, develop an actual method that works with every single one of these one on one cases. So a part of that is going to be telling a lot of people, no, you don’t fit what I’m selling.
[00:10:25.940] – Dancho – Yeah, you have a framework that works for specific target group and you’re like for the others, I cannot help you. But if you are in my target audience, follow these steps, method or framework, and you’re going to guarantee get the result.
[00:10:39.990] – Tom – Exactly. So when those things are happening, the next thing that’s going to come up is time constraints. How many one on ones can I do within the day? Again, scaling problem. And that’s when you throw people into group coaching using this method, right. So we’re all following this method, but we’re in a group. And then the next step from that is an online course for the people who simply cannot afford or attend the group coaching when you have it. And if you take these steps one by one, that’s when you become stupid lucky. And you come to me later on saying like, Tom, I’m making six figures. I don’t know how it happened, but now I just don’t know how to scale it because I put out more blog posts or I put out more YouTube videos, which got me all these clients, but then I put out ten more and now nothing moves the needle anymore. That’s how people become lucky. They use this method. And I’ve seen over and over when people tell me, hey, I just put the offer out and it happened. They all unconsciously went through this path, where the coaches, trainers and speakers, they’re all missing that first piece. They’ve never done it do it for your service. Yeah, they’ve never done it do it for your service. They’ve never done it do it with your service. And they’ve never actually done one on one consultant to develop a method. All they’ve done is develop a theory and do sort of group coaching where someone else is getting people in the seats. And it doesn’t transfer very well into an online world because without that excitement that Russell Brunson screaming on stage and playing music and the girls dancing and you run into the back of the room to quickly buy before he says, oh, no, it’s closed, online. No one’s going to believe that.
[00:12:36.400] – Dancho – Now is the moment, do it. But it’s interesting, Tom, that’s why I want to invite experts on different topics. And here you’re touching a really nice topic because guru means that you’re an expert in the field and self-proclaimed guru, I can say tomorrow, I’m, I don’t know, God, I can claim whatever I want. The whole point is all the steps that are necessary to become guru is actually doing something over and over and over again, finding some patterns in doing that from the patterns you’re actually creating the method that you just talked about. And then you’re saying, well, okay, I’ve learned I spent 5, 10, 15 years in mastering something. Now I can actually share it with the world. And you know, that’s the harder way because people are lazy. They’re like, well, why doing that, tomorrow, I can be self-proclaimed guru about, okay, leadership. It’s very intangible topic that nobody can catch me, whether they’re going to get results or something or motivation. And from tomorrow I can actually coach, teach and everything. Although I’ve never ever worked as a leadership consultant or I’ve actually created something out of it.
[00:13:49.110] – Tom – Yeah. I just don’t work with those people. I don’t. Within the first few minutes if somehow they get through all my sales pages and everything where I tried to push them away, if they get on the call within the first three minutes, I know, like you’re not an expert, there’s no need to talk. Yeah, I can sell what you’re doing, but I’m not going to.
[00:14:10.720] – Dancho – Trying to understand the depth of a person on the expert subject matter. Now, of course you cannot be expert in everything, but if you want to create a course around something, you really need to be expert in that field. And it’s interesting, Tom, because you are moving from sales to marketing. So you actually can compare both worlds like, okay, if you’re not selling, I know what’s the problem. If you’re not marketing, I know what’s the problem. And I find it really good when people shift from one option to another because I started as a management consultant first. I worked a lot with entrepreneurs and startups and business plan and everything. So when I moved to sales, actually for me it’s not sales okay, just it’s KPI. But actually trying to understand first the business model of the company before you can give any advice on sales, you’re like, wait, what do you buy? How do you sell? Why do you sell it? What is the process? What are the system? What is the HR? Understanding the business, and then you’re like, okay, well now I’ve diagnosed that based on this business model, you actually need, not with Facebook ads, because in that case, for this particular work or you cannot use cold calling or you should do cold calling because of X, Y, Z. So it’s really the diagnostic part. And for you, you’re actually doing the same, just not on the business model, but we’re actually doing the diagnostics on the sales. So when a trainer comes in, when a guy with an online training, we’re first trying to analyze their existing sales in order to understand where they are at the moment. So then you can recommend the right marketing path for them in order to grow.
[00:15:46.240] – Tom – Yeah. Or we often have to actually fix the sales funnel a bit first to get them ready for the marketing.
[00:15:51.730] – Dancho – Exactly. Because, you know sales, you can say, but wait, your offer is actually wrong or the product-market fit is actually not working. So that’s actually really smart way of moving because you can fix the prerequisites. So as a marketing, you know exactly how to help them. But you see that they are not ready to go to the marketing. So you can take a step back, fix whatever is fixable in sales. So you can then move it into the marketing.
[00:16:17.920] – Tom – Yeah. I’ll give you an example. I just had a client that just signed up and they’re making over $500,000 a year.
[00:16:25.890] – Dancho – Nice.
[00:16:26.970] – Tom – Sort of. They don’t know where it’s coming from.
[00:16:30.570] – Dancho – Wow, half a million. I don’t know, I woke up, people probably buy it.
[00:16:36.470] – Tom – No, it’s not even that. Basically what they do is they have a pretty good wheel that brings in the sales and marketing, right. So blog post, social stuff. But when I asked them where is it coming from? They had no tracking. No tracking whatsoever. So I’m like, okay, well, how do we dial in?
[00:16:57.010] – Dancho – How do you evaluate which channels you should invest more in?
[00:17:02.010] – Tom – There you go. So the big piece where I was like, well, you don’t actually need to hire me for a lot right now. Let me just get the right tracking for you and figure out what’s working, what’s not. You kill off what’s not working, double down on what’s working and come back to me in six months and I’ll move it from there. But that’s the main thing we need to do now.
[00:17:20.190] – Dancho – That’s the baseline. Because you have no idea which direction is. Well, the diagnostics in the consulting world many times is misled because people, as you said, if you’re not expert, you only know a few steps and you know how to repeat them indefinitely. They’re like, people with different problems are coming in and you’re like, I don’t care what’s your problem. I know this will do X, Y, and Z. And instead of diagnosing can actually realize which pill you should give to the client. People just jumping, use my framework and you’re just going to get the results.
[00:17:52.350] – Tom – Yeah. So this is why marketing online courses are very tricky. Because the frameworks are there, definitely. But I have maybe 20 different frameworks. And any time you come to me without me really going over-diagnosing what you’re doing, the answer is going to be always it depends.
[00:18:14.020] – Dancho – Of course. How do you know which pill to give to the company until you actually… I really make the comparison with doctor, because you go to a doctor, they ask you, what’s the problem? They do a mini investigation diagnosis, and then they tell you, prescription, drink this, don’t do this.
[00:18:31.000] – Tom – Yeah, it’s the same thing. But this is when I see people selling marketing courses, I often feel like, well, how do you know this framework will be the right one for even half of these people? Because there’s just so much new ones, so many variations. Even when you’re validating, you need to understand what’s happening with the data to maybe quickly switch the frameworks, right. Because at one it might not work anymore. So some things are just very hard to put into a course without sub support. What I would do more would be some sort of a boot camp maybe. Where we’re all moving through the same path. And then at the end of the week I pretty much would have to, you know, people that are not doing well, show me and then I’ll explain and people understand why it’s not going well. But not all things are very easy to put into an online course. Especially like you said, the people who are just motivating and leadership. I always ask what is it you actually do?
[00:19:43.250] – Dancho – Don’t ask the hard questions. Come on! Don’t get me wrong. There are people that really know their stuff. But when people decide to do the self-proclaiming consulting, they’re usually always looking for intangible things that cannot really be measured. So in your case, Tom, I mean, marketing for an online course is like, okay, before I got in, this is your current sales. After I got involved, this is before and after. Well, in leadership and don’t get me wrong, I know some really fantastic leadership consultants, but I think that they know what they’re doing, compared to people that just took the lazy way out. What’s the easiest that I can consult about or teach about or train about? Find some intangible topic and mindset, mindset coaching is really intangible. Yeah, what were you thinking before and what you were thinking after?
[00:20:38.070] – Tom – Yeah, but the best leadership coaches, they don’t take on any client. The best ones will say, I work with factories that make a million dollars plus that have these type of bottlenecks and these type of problems and maybe hiring issues or you have problems keeping developers or getting… The real leadership people that know what they’re doing, they’re going to go very niche. They’re going to tell you that if you don’t make 80,000 per month in any commerce business selling sports goods, I’m probably not the guy for you.
[00:21:09.240] – Dancho – Well, that’s the technical versus the entertainer that we discussed earlier. Because if I’m an expert, I know, but my model is not one solution fit all I can help this very particular type. While the entertainer type is like come on board, we’ll figure out something along the way in order to help. And Tom, I’m curious just because I’m looking at the time as well. We do have a lot of people that have training online or that are considering doing some online trainings, me included, for the sake. In June I actually made the manifesto that not this year, but by the end of next year we’re going to have an eight week academy on the B2B lead generation in the outreach. Eight week with everything, actually. So I’m just curious about your insights. For example, for people that is just considering starting an online course, what would be the best course? I mean, I understand your framework first do that done for you and everything. And in case that they started with that, they passed through the consulting coaching stage and now they’re considering to start the online course. You touched one thing because everybody says, you know, the product market fit, whether you have the offer, whether you have the audience. But the last part was the educator. So when you do the marketing, give us some idea or background how you actually approach on the marketing and how you actually help the clients to get their course better?
[00:22:41.610] – Tom – Well, I always stress to do as much insight marketing as you can. Because you have insights from things that work in your field that others don’t. And I find for my business personally, every time I give a couple of insights to my email list, I have people signing up to work with me and I just don’t have room. So I try not to reach out too much because then people get upset that I can’t work with them. So I find this method works really well for almost every other person, too. And especially if you have an agency, there’s going to be a lot of people you spoke with that you just either had no room for, they weren’t really great fit or didn’t have the budget. And those people are perfect for a live boot camp or a thing where like, look, I’m going to help you. Plus, some people just want to do things themselves and you simply did not have that offer before where they can do that, where they can actually do things themselves, and you teach them or teach their team. So what I usually recommend to start with is try to sell something that’s not very long. Maybe you think in eight weeks, maybe do a little shorter, maybe six or four weeks, but make it live. And there’s two reasons for this, because you can one, sell them on a very generic outcome. You don’t have to premake the entire course because you don’t know what they want to learn actually that well. By doing it live, you can be like, we’re going to move in this direction. I’m going to help you whatever, get your first thousand Instagram followers and make sure you get your first two sales. But after teaching the beginning one or two classes, I would do like maybe 1 hour live per week. At the end, I would say, well, my plan is to go over this stuff next week. What do you guys want to learn?
[00:24:43.890] – Dancho – Yeah, and based on that feedback, actually try to plan the second lesson.
[00:24:48.070] – Tom – Yeah. Let them help you design the course for you. And the second biggest piece of this is if you cannot sell yourself live in a boot camp, nobody’s going to sell buy your online course where you’re not there, right. This is like a very simple thing.
[00:25:05.620] – Dancho – Yeah, I know. But you’re touching the whole point with the marketing is just going to amplify what is there. So if there’s nothing there with the marketing, you’re not going to make any fantastic results. So you first need to make sure that your product sells but on a smaller quantities. And then with the marketing, you’re just amplifying the results, right?
[00:25:28.610] – Tom – That’s it. Yeah, so often with validation, we can market ideas and then see how the course will fit into those ideas. And that’s why I like boot camps in the beginning, because I can test a number of things when I’m marketing. And we can quickly see that you were trying to teach people how to stop being scared of public speaking or in actuality, through my marketing testing. They want to learn how to be persuasive on stage or on podcast or anywhere. They want to be able to influence people. They don’t care about the fear of speaking. They might have it, but it’s not selling them. What’s making them click through is when I tell them, I’m going to teach you how to persuade anybody. And now you can redesign your boot camp to work, right? You can have a larger theme, I’m going to teach you how to speak better and teach you all these different things. But you can quickly find out that okay, we’re going to have to double down on the persuasive part, not the fear, which you thought.
[00:26:30.120] – Dancho – Yeah, based on the feedback that you’re going to get.
[00:26:32.350] – Tom – There you go. So marketing plays two different parts. Marketing is used for testing, and validation before you make the course. Because if you make the course, there’s not much I can do. Because you already picked an angle that you’re moving with, right. And if it’s not selling, that means your offer just sucks. You got to remake. But boot camps, they’re very easy to quickly move around. We can change things on the sales page because guess what? You haven’t started it yet.
[00:27:00.270] – Dancho – True. Tom, it has perfect sense that I’m listening from you. And don’t get me wrong, in the back of my head, I’m digesting how this applies for me because I’m sure that as I’m adjusting how it applies for me, all the other listeners are also like, okay, how can this actually work for me? And Tom, I’m looking at the watch, and I wanted to go to our closure of the show, where people can find you, Tom? I mean, at the end of the day, I’m sure that you’ve picked our brains a bit. We need to digest what you just heard and what’s the best way people can reach out, either if they have any questions or if they need help with their online courses. How people can actually find you?
[00:27:42.170] – Tom – So two different things. If you just want to reach out and see what I’m doing, smartbrandmarketing.com, that’s where I’m at, easy to contact me -smartbrandmarketing.com. If you need help with the course – wemarketonlinecourses.com.
[00:27:59.070] – Dancho – I’m going to actually put both links below the video so anybody can actually just click. And other than that, Tom, what I usually do on this recording is as a wonderful student, I also take notes as we discuss.
[00:28:14.270] – Tom – Nice.
[00:28:14.840] – Dancho – So I wanted to share a few golden nuggets that I’ve actually got from this conversation. As in summary, if you just give me I have like four or five very good points that I reflect on how they will help me. So first you’re really spot on that there are two ways how you can get something, either the dumb or the smart way. Whether you’re going to just go at quantity, quantity and with 00.0 something success still going to make some money, but it’s really the dumb way. Well the smart way is to figure out who actually can help and focus more specifically on those people and get far better results. The second is that you have a good point that it’s in the online course world, it’s not product market fit, but it’s product, market and educator feed because it’s also the person and the person that was really good that I was not have it clear. But now I do is that there is really huge difference between an entertainer and a technical expert. And although they want to do the same thing, do an online training, it’s really completely a different route that they should take in order to be successful. And the fourth point was that you made a really good flow. Like you start with an agency, the done for you. We have that for five or six years, then move to one on one consulting. So in BizzBee we have the consulting aspect as well already. You need to create the framework. So the “Sweet Leads” book is actually all the frameworks that we have. Like step one, define your ideal client, build a database and everything, then move to group coaching. I haven’t got one yet but yeah, I should actually consider adding either group coaching or mastermind or something in that direction. And then when you get to the online course you are really the expert. Because if you’ve done all from the above, you started working on the people, then you started consulting, figuring out the patterns, the framework. So when you got to the training you really know your stuff. It’s not like let me choose now a topic I have zero experience and start doing training on that. And the last part that you said, the fifth golden nugget that I got from this conversation was to share insights with your tribe. Because every time when you share something people are attracted to you as an expert. But also instead of pre planning like a two year preparation for an online academy, just start with it. Start getting as early feedback as possible because based on the feedback, you can adjust the content, you can adjust the materials and everything. And at the end of the day, co-creation is always better than you lock yourself in a room and try to invent the world and then try to check the market and fail miserably or invite the people that you want to work and together create a course that, you know, that really adds the value. And that changes a lot because even me as an entrepreneur, we kind of want to lock ourselves in our head with an empty whiteboard and start sketching. Day one, day two, day five, day 177. Well, it’s much harder because you’re trying to assume what the market wants, while on the other hand, it’s much simpler. Ask them, include them in the creation, and then whatever it will end as the final product you know that people will like it. So those were like my five or six golden nuggets out of this recording, Tom. I hope that if people missed some of this by me summarizing, they would realize that the value from this conversation. In closure, Tom, I really appreciate you coming on the show. I really want to thank you for coming and for everybody else, now that you know, Tom, if you’re considering or already have an online course, reach out to Tom, try to see how he can help you. And of course, we all want to grow, especially as a consultant, as a trainer, and as a coaches. And yes, like it or not, we really need to do smart marketing for our digital products if we want to succeed.
[00:32:18.250] – Tom – Yeah, it’s 80% of the whole game, the marketing. Once you make the course, then it’s really all about the marketing after that.
[00:32:25.180] – Dancho – And 80% is a lot. Don’t get me wrong, when I was writing the book two years in the building, I was going to die just writing and writing. And as you write, you think of frameworks and then you realize why we are doing it like this and go back to the agency, fix the model, then come and continue writing. And just when I finish that’s it. I realized that there is next stage – publishing, and then I need to go over and over the process and I was like, I’m done. They’re like, no, you actually just started. I don’t need to market it for the rest of my life. That’s it, you write a book, just sit back and relax. And I’ve realized that, you know, perfectly for the online courses. But I find the resemblance that in other digital products, it can be applied as well.
[00:33:08.770] – Tom – Anything, any offer you have, in the agency and a start-up, in software, I mean, marketing is really going to be the big thing you got to always focus on. Once you build whatever you’re building and you get the sales process right. And it’s just all marketing.
[00:33:23.910] – Dancho – Yeah, true. Well, Tom, thanks again very much for coming to the show and for the rest of you guys have a great day.
[00:33:30.860] – Tom – Yep, thanks for having me.
Dancho is a serial entrepreneur, founder & CEO of BizzBee Solutions, proud father of two boys, and a ‘kafana’ enthusiast. He’s also the author of Amazon’s bestseller, ‘Sweet Leads.’ Dancho believes in building relationships with people and is inspired by growth. His ‘ZZ framework’ and formula for growth have brought 500+ clients the results they sought.
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